Who doesn’t like to listen to podcasts? Listeners are growing by the day in the major platforms (Spotify, Google, Apple Play). But is there QUALITY content?
AI Theology presents to you a new podcast. Elias Kruger and Maggie Bender discuss the intersection between theology and technology in the budding world of AI and other emerging technologies. They bring the best from academy, industry and church together in a lively conversation. Join us and expand your mind with topics like ai ethics, ai for good, guest interviews and much more.
Here is episode 1: Faith, AI and the Climate Crisis
Elias Kruger and Maggie Bender discuss how AI and faith can help address in the climate crisis. We dive into some controversy here and how religion has not always been an ally in the battle for conservation. Yet, what are the opportunities for AI and faith to join forces in this daunting challenges. The conversation covers creation, worship, algorithms, optimization and recent efforts to save the Amazon.
After listening, don’t forget to hare wih friends and give us your feedback. Also don’t forget to rate the episodes on the podcast platforms.
Who doesn’t like to listen to podcasts? Listeners are growing by the day in the major platforms (Spotify, Google, Apple Play). But is there QUALITY content?
AI Theology presents to you a new podcast. Elias Kruger and Maggie Bender discuss the intersection between theology and technology in the budding world of AI and other emerging technologies. They bring the best from academy, industry and church together in a lively conversation. Join us and expand your mind with topics like ai ethics, ai for good, guest interviews and much more.
We already have a small intro and our first episode on air, here’s how you can listen to us:
Elias Kruger and Maggie Bender will take you into thought-provoking dialogues. Get to know our hosts and what you, our listener, can expect from this podcast. Click on top of your favorite podcast platform:
After listening, don’t forget to hare wih friends and give us your feedback. Also don’t forget to rate the episodes on the podcast platforms.
At our January Advisory Board meeting, we explored the question of whether we live in a technological age. You can find Part 1 of our conversation in this post. In Part 2 below, we discuss a new telos of technology.
Elias: I think we established, for the most part, that this is a technological age. Maybe we always have been in a technological age, but technology is definitely part of our lives now. Some of you started hinting at the idea that technology is pointing towards something. It is teleological, from the Greek word telos, meaning goal. Technology leads toward something. And I think Chardin saw technology leading into the Omega point, while Ellul saw it more as a perversion of a Christian eschaton. In his view, the Christian position was to resist and subvert it.
The question I have now is very broad. How do we forge a new vision, a new telos, for technology? Or maybe even, what would that telos be? We talked earlier about technology for the sake of capitalism or consumption. What would be a new telos for technology, and how would we forge this new vision?
No Overall Goal for Technology
František: I have a great colleague with a technical background and a longtime friend. I studied with him in Amsterdam. He’s now sort of an important person in a company developing AI. He’s a member of the team which programmed the AI to play poker. So he’s quite skillful in programming, and actually working on the development of AI. He’s developing amazing things.
I spoke with him about this telos question, “What is the aim of technology?” He said, “Well, there is no such thing as an overall goal.” The goal is to improve our program to be able to fight more sophisticated threats to our system. That’s what we are developing. So basically, there is no general telos of technology. There is only a narrow focus. There is just the goal to improve technology, that it gets better, and serves better the concrete purpose for which is built. It’s a very particular focus.
A Clash of Mentalities
I was very unhappy with this answer. After all, there must be some goal. And he said, “Well, that’s the business of theologians.” My friend said he doesn’t believe in anything. Not in theism, not even in atheism, he just doesn’t bother discussing it. So for him, there is no God, no goal, nothing. We’re just living our life. And we’re improving it. We are improving it step by step. He’s a well-studied, learned person, and he sees it like that. I’ve experienced the same thing during conversations with many of my friends who are working in technology on the technical or the business side.
So they would say, perhaps, there is no goal. That’s a clash of mentalities. We are trying to build a bridge between this technological type of thinking and the theological, philosophical perspective which intends to see the higher goal.
I don’t have a good argument. You can try to convince him that there is a higher goal, but he doesn’t believe in a higher goal. So I’m afraid that a lot of people developing technology do not see further than the next step of a particular piece of technology. And I’m afraid that here we are, getting close to the vision of the Brave New World, you know, the novel. People are improving technology on a particular stage, but they do not see the full picture. It is all about improving technology to the next step. There is no long-term thinking. Perhaps there are some visionaries, but this is at least my experience, which I’m afraid is quite broad in the field of technology.
The Human Telos of Technology
Maggie: I feel like that happens a lot from the developer side of technology. But at least the import within technology should be that you have some sort of product owner or product manager, that’s supposed to be supplying a vision. That person could start thinking about the goal of technology. I know a lot of times within technology, the product manager draws out the user story. So, “I’m a user. I want to ______, so that ______.” And it’s the so that which becomes the bigger element that’s drawn out. But that’s still at a very microscopic level. So yeah, there might be an intersection with the larger goal of technology, but I don’t think it really is used there very well.
Elias: Some of you who have known me for a long time know how much I have struggled with my job and finding meaning in what I do. And a lot of times it was exactly like you described, František. It was like, What am I doing here? What is this for? And I found, at least recently, this sweet spot where I found a lot of meaning in what I was doing. It wasn’t like I was changing people’s lives. But I found this passion to make things better and more efficient. When you are in a large corporation things can be so bureaucratic. And we were able to come in and say, I don’t care how you do it, we’re gonna accomplish this thing. And then you actually get it done. There is a sense of purpose and satisfaction in that alone.
The Creative Value of Work
I would venture to say that your friend, František, is actually doing creative work, co-creative work with God. He may not call it that. But there is something about bringing order out of chaos. I think even in a situation where the user or the developer is not aware, there might be goals happening there that we could appreciate and describe theologically.
For instance, going back to my experience, it might just be the phase that I’m in at work. But I’m feeling a lot of satisfaction in getting things done nowadays. Just simply getting things done. How can I put that theologically? I don’t know. Is that how God felt after creation? But there is something about accomplishing things. Now, if that’s all you do, obviously, eventually it just becomes meaningless. But there is something meaningful in the act of accomplishing a task.
Maggie: And just the sanctity of work too. Your friend, he’s working, he’s doing something. And in that type of work, even though it’s labor, I think it’s still a part of the human telos.
František: Yeah, I think so, even though he thinks that there is no human telos as such. And we keep having conversations, and he still sees something important in the conversations. So that means he still keeps coming to the conversation with philosophers and theologians, even though he sort of disregards their work because he sees it as not relevant to his work. But I think that’s a sign of hope in his heart.
What can an ancient Mesoamerican culture teach the global community in the 21st century? I pondered on these question on my 2.5+ hours bus ride between Cancun and the Chichen Itza’s ruins. With no pretensions or pressure to come up with something, the trip would prove thought-provoking and inspiring. In this blog, I’ll share my findings and a bit about how I ended up there two weeks ago. While being a sucker for exploring new cultures, what I found here went beyond the usual history lesson. With their rich history, delicious cuisine, advanced technology, the Maya surprised me while also challenging me to care for this earth.
An Invitation to a Journey
Like rivers flowing into oceans, so are the unplanned encounters of the soul in unexpected journeys of discovery. I didn’t set out to the Yucatan peninsula in a quest to learn about the Mayas. Quite the contrary, I was there to rest and celebrate with my wife our 20th anniversary. Away from kids, work, and the many demands of our life at this stage, we yearned for the gentle soothing sounds of the sea.
Even so, places have a way to whisper. They often carry with them stories untold of a past waiting to be discovered. I knew some important monuments and Mayan ruins were nearby and that was enough to pique my interest. In the hotel I learned about my options, only wanting to spend a day I chose the most visited site: Chichen Itza, only a 2.5-3 hour drive from the area we were staying.
My wife, seeking to avoid the crowds and rest up for a day, decided to stay while encouraging me to go. Being one day away from each halfway through our stay sounded like a good compromise from the wisdom of 20 years of marriage. In an interesting twist, when learning I was from Brazil, the hotel agent booked me with a Portuguese-speaking guide. I would join Brazilians and Portuguese natives who were also discovering this Mayan Jewel.
Mayan Zodiac Circle – by Wikimedia commons
Re-enchanting the World through Native cultures
Modernity’s move toward secular science has borne out many achievements. Even so, it also resulted in tremendous loss. For one, people in the West lost their sense of connection with nature and with it also their reverence and respect for it. Nature went from an object of worship to raw material to be exploited. The call to subdue earth meant more than taming nature but ultimately came to justify a massive amount of destruction, pollution, and degradation.
Hence, it is no surprise that westerners like me would have a renewed interest in pre-Modern cultures like the Mayas. They point us to a time when connection and reverence to nature were the order of the day. Rejecting prevalent attitudes that would either see it as a competing religion or dismiss it as primitive superstition, we can now look at Mayans with a humble attitude to listen. What does their story of advancement, exuberance, warfare, and decline teach us today as we live in our age of environmental crisis? It is with this posture, that I approach and reflect on my recent visit to Chichen Itza.
The STEM side of the Maya
As I rode the bus on the way to Chichen Itza, I was bracing for a real-life history lesson. What I did not expect was a math class early morning on my 3rd day of vacation! Yet, since we had a long drive there, our guide Mauricio Dzul, proceeded to explain the very elaborate yet elegant numbering system the Mayas created. Using only dots, dashes, and a shell-like symbol they can represent any number! I must say that my curious mind was intrigued and made me wonder, shouldn’t we teach this more as a way to diversify teaching mathematics? I might teach it to my kids just for fun.
From Wikimedia Commons
Why did they develop their number system? While there may be other reasons, The Maya people were astute observers of the skies. They used the movement of the Sun, Moon and Venus to devise the most elaborate calendar system in the world. In this calendar, they counted time that went back thousands of years and needed a way to express these long dates. It was a misunderstanding of this calendar that led to the paranoia with the 2012 date. That was not a good use of Maya technology!
From Wikimedia commons
Their historical witness challenges us to look up and consider the stars anew with keen curiosity and reverence. Their astronomy did not only lead to a number system but also greatly influenced their engineering. The Yucatan peninsula is dotted with the remains of buildings oriented towards the movements of the Sun and Moon. They continue to attract thousands to witness intriguing light patterns on Solistice dates. In my visit to Chichen Itza, our guide showed how when clapping from designated place we could hear multiple echoes and even the sound of a bird.
Mysterious Abandoments
Since my visit, I have become obsessed with all things Maya and their technology. Browsing materials on it and now listening to a course on their history, I learned of the vastness and richness of the field. Mayan studies continue to expand as many ruins are yet to be discovered and properly understood. In this thriving field, one of the most daunting questions has been the cities’ abandonment. By the time the Spanish arrived, many of the great Mayan cities were already ruins covered by the rainforest.
I asked our knowledgeable guide about this. While there was warfare involved, in many cases, the population simply left migrating to other cities or smaller settlements in the forest. He indicated that it was most likely because of weather changes, some of which may have been precipitated by agricultural practices to feed growing populations in the region. Changes in rain patterns disrupted harvest yields leading to political instability and warfare.
If this is indeed the case, then the Maya story through technology also offers a cautionary tale for our time. It re-inforces the message scientists have been warning us about in the last decades on climate change. We must revisit our way of life and how we sustain our growing populations or see our big skyscrapers become ruins overtaken by forest.
Conclusion
Contrary to what it seems, I don’t purposefully look for reasons to blog on my vacation. Yet, they occur from time to time. All it takes is a willingness to enter into the story of a place. Even in a digitally connected world, physical spaces matter. We sit on land that was re-settled by many before us. They, in turn, lived in ecosystems that took millions of years to form. Attending to the story of both the land we inhabit and the people that lived before us is our duty and call for this time.
I cannot see a more theological task than this. If we believe in a timeless God who created the earth, surely we must learn to hear God’s voice in the ground we step on and the cultures that preceded us. If we slow down to listen, we’ll be amazed at the wisdom that surfaces. These are the very whispers of God speaking truth through time and space.
With that posture, I am grateful for the Mayans and their land which I had the privilege to visit. In my time of rest and recreation, I also found new nuggets of wisdom to take along the journey.
Which story is the place you live in telling you? If you haven’t pondered on this question maybe now it is time to start searching.
Are we living in a technological age? A brief answer is that we have always lived in a technological age.
The danger we see is that technology is a product from ourselves. This brings fear and hope, both. We fear ourselves and have hope in ourselves.
At our January meeting, the AI Theology Advisory Board discussed the idea that we are living in a technological age. Understanding our time and context is an important step for our discussions and everything we do in AI Theology. Our exploration of AI and theology will be most fruitful if they are connected to the time in which we live.
We began with a presentation that reviewed the three perspectives outlined in previous blogs: Teilhard, Ellul, and Arthur. Here is a summary of our discussion:
Elias: I want to start with two questions.
1) Are we living in a technological age, and if so, why?
2) If we are living in a technological age, what is the danger of not acknowledging or discussing it? What happens when we take it for granted? In other words, if we are living it, what is the danger of not naming it?
The Nature of Technology
Maggie: Technology is such a part of life. The danger is that, if we omit reflection on it, we are suppressing a part of our own lives. If you spend your whole day interacting with the digital world, 40 hours a week, that is going to impact who you are and what the world means to you.
Wen: I see technology not as a part of ourselves, but as something we interact with, either consciously or unconsciously. The third concept, from Arthur, reminded me of “stewardship of resources.” At a broad level, it’s how we steward our natural resources. How do we use our natural resources and make things out of them? I’m thinking here not only of digital technology but various types of technologies that impact the way we use resources.
Elias: This subtle distinction can change how we interact with and discuss technology. One view is that technology is, in some ways, “the other.” We use and interact with it. The other view is that technology is a part of who we are. I’m not saying that either way is right or wrong. But this subtle distinction can change the way we approach technology.
There is fear and hope because technology is on the edge of the transcendental.
Frantisek Stech
Every Age Is Technological
Frantisek: Are we living in a technological age? A brief answer is that we have always lived in a technological age. When human beings started to reflect on themselves, they started organizing their environment–that is using technology. Even language can be considered technology in a sense. We can discuss building a nest as a kind of technology for animals. Since we are able to reflect on our skills, craftsmanship, or any kind of ability, this is technology. It’s the Greek word Téchne, the knowledge of “how to”.
The danger we see is that technology is a product from ourselves. This brings fear and hope, both. We fear ourselves and have hope in ourselves. It is a clash between a Promethean approach to life and a transcendental approach to life. Between our own powers, and transcendental powers. Technology is something you can control. When you try to control the transcendental, it’s called magic. There is fear and hope because technology is on the edge of the transcendental. Everything is assembled like the Jewish story of golem, a creature made to serve the master. Technology has the potential to either serve or destroy the master, and the community it is inserted into.
The larger issue of digital technology today is, it is a kind of development of the ecosystem. We are living in a digital landscape as well as the physical world. We fear that it will destroy us if we use it too much.
Technology and Culture
Frantisek: If we think about theology and AI, then it presupposes theology of technology, and before that, a theology of culture (for context).
Elias: We’ve always had technology, but is there something about the time we are living that makes it the dominant force? And this is where we can agree or disagree. We can say that technology is a reflection of other forces, or that technology itself influences everything. I have the idea that technology is the dominant force, and when we don’t talk about it, it becomes even more powerful.
On the other hand, some people can think differently.
Wen: Technology today is built for automation and speed. So technologies of the past, like a windmill or a hammer, couldn’t do very much in a short time. This technology required more human effort to “make things happen.” A hammer couldn’t do much on its own, but today if you press a single button, many things can happen.
Elias: That’s an interesting point, Wen. Let me build on that a bit. Given the compounding of technologies in our time, not only is technology self-perpetuating but it is doing so with impressive speed. In other words, there is a different level of self-perpetuation that we may no longer be in control of. It is almost as if technology has taken a life of its own.
Religion and Technology
Ben: I think we’ve always lived in a technological age. As it relates to the theological construct, I think religion is technology. It’s meant to codify and systematize entropy and suffering, and explain it in a consistent worldview. That is a technological movement. It is also an attempt to systematize and control.
Is technology a co-creator, or is technology existential? This conversation has roots in incarnation. What does it mean to be enfleshed, a human? The question I come up with is, technology is about automation and efficiency. But for what? For what end, and what is the cost of this efficiency? I wonder if technology is unable to address incarnational needs such as love, truth, beauty, and we hope to automate those things so we can seek the intangibles. So there are now studies to classify the intangible human needs. Technology is becoming part of the intangible of life as well.
Elias: What you are saying connects with what Maggie was talking about, the idea of technique as a way of control. The totality of technique–trying to find the best technique. Trying to find the best way to love or communicate.
Purpose and Reflection
Maggie: One view of technology is that, “now we have more time to be fully human.” I don’t know if that actually happens. We spend more time thinking about what makes a human good than we do spending time with things we enjoy. The iterative nature of technology contains a reductionist assumption that everything that is good can be reduced to a test. There isn’t a lot of stepping back to ask about the larger purpose. For instance, “I’m working to reduce retail prices,” but do the retailers want help setting prices? Is that what is going to save them time? Does this technology improve something, reduce something? Is this really going to help people save time?
Wen: The phone being replaced every two years, I see it more as capitalist behavior than as tech getting better. I think the underlying social context is consumption. This frames how the tech manifests itself. If we changed the cultural context of the world we live in, we would see a very different manifestation of technology. The products would be different. In a world where capitalism wasn’t the center, we would see a different line of technology, both in its tools and its uses.
Technology is trying to be the Tower of Babel or the fountain of youth. I don’t mean just apps, but the broad range of technology and industries strive toward these ends
Wen Dombrowski
The Tower of Babel
Ben: I agree with what you said. Is there a longing aspect? Are we trying to create and advance ourselves to enlightenment? And if it’s true, the kingdom on earth concept becomes more concrete. Or are we iterating because we don’t know what else to do with the opportunity, cost, and time we have lost? Where does this get us any closer to enlightenment?
Wen: Technology is trying to be the Tower of Babel or the fountain of youth. I don’t mean just apps, but the broad range of technology and industries strive toward these ends.
Ben: To illustrate this, I’m going to use myself as a negative example. One thing I learned with a neuroscientist is about the correlation of quality of sleep and cognitive issues (like dementia and Alzheimer’s). So I became obsessed with the technology of sleep, looking for technology to help me sleep. And when I lay down, I would get anxious about the fact I wasn’t sleeping. So when technology was supposed to help me sleep better and prevent these diseases, I was actually anxious about the tech. The existential crisis is that technology creates more opportunity for existential non-incarnational presence as we rely on “external transcendent divine,” rather than on our own ability, to track and examine data.
